Damn The Geeks
October 8, 2008Second Life, the client application, has high hardware requirements, it’s probably safe to say. I first came into SL on a mac mini, and would routinely get chopped down in katana fights. I couldn’t see what my opponents were doing. It was like being at a disco and only seeing what was going on every few seconds when the strobes were on. That’s what SL with GMA950 integrated graphics was like back then, I can only imagine how badly it chokes on Windlight now. I wouldn’t know because I haven’t tried it on bad hardware lately. BTW, did you notice how I totally avoided the thought that maybe I just really suck at sword fighting, regardless of hardware?
But I have to say, when I hear this fact equated with the comment that “fanboy geeks rule SL,” I really have to wonder, what are the actual technical challenges involved with making this stuff realistic and yet also technically accessible to people who don’t have modern hardware?
A mini tangent here… the term fanboy geek gets slung around at anyone who disagrees with people making the statements, but in terms of SL technology, there’s really very few geeks. People who know how to do 3d graphics and understand the challenges and compromises involved in making a VW with user generated content. I don’t understand how this stuff works at a source code level, and I submit that I have a better technical background than the people I’m thinking of appear to. So could we please stop calling anyone that disagrees with you a fanboy geek regardless of their actual level of technical acumen? Please?
This is the fundamental difference between SL and just about any other computer game, VW, or application your computer has to run… it is user generated content, the world changes, and therefore can’t be loaded off HD. It’s also full of less than optimal textures and other junk tossed into the metaverse by every bozo with an account.
What all this means is that right off the bat, you’re going to be asking more of someone’s system with SL than you are with something like World of Warcraft, where the whole universe comes on optical media and all the textures and content are professionally produced and optimized. Every time you spin your avatar around in SL or move across the grid, you have to go through this loading/sending/rendering process all over again.
I’ll be the first to agree that none of this proves that LL is doing things in the most efficient manner. And none of this answers the debate over Windlight, and whether or not the old graphics were good enough, and we should have just maintained status quo. Prokofy claims to speak for everyone when she says that no one wanted Windlight except for Pastrami, but I think that’s probably bullshit, and I’m sure she knows it. This kind of broad statement is rarely true and in fact is like saying that all common people want Palin. What’s a common person? Oh, YOUR definition of common. Got it. It may infuriate her to hear it, but the fact is that at some point, not moving forward with realism would cost SL as people move on to other upcoming technologies and VW platforms. We know this stuff IS going to move to more realism and more immersive graphics and environments, so that point isn’t even relevant. The question is how to make it happen without choking people’s systems or requiring that they get a new computer every year.
The real question is not whether making things more realistic is the right thing to do. The real imperative for LL is to look around and find out what other technologies are out there that are being used, could be used, probably will be used to make these things happen. Huge corporations are working on how 3d is going to be rendered in the future, and also on just about every other aspect of technologies that go into making up VW’s. The problems are huge. Discounting them by calling for the abolishment of Windlight is missing the whole point. Great, we can all go back to an even more cartoony world, but that’s not going to do anything for us moving forward. These are real problems that have to get solved, and no matter how much it pisses you off when I say this, it is not 2003 anymore. VW’s *WILL* move forward in graphical realism and therefore requirements on hardware. The problem is how to do that correctly, not how NOT to do it at all.
By the way, I’d like to point out that I personally go into SL probably 99% of the time these days on a system with a Radeon X1900. This card line came out in early 2006 or so, obviously not a long time ago in human years, but in computer terms, it’s far from new or top of the line. I usually get anywhere from mid 20’s to low 50’s in terms of FPS. The X1900 is a capable card but it’s far from being geeky fanboy stuff. I doubt any uber-geeks would list this as their 3d world/game card of choice anymore. If they do, they probably aren’t really an uber-geek. I fully realize and acknowledge there are a lot of factors involved with how SL performs on any given system, and I’m not one of those who thinks that because they personally don’t see a problem, it doesn’t exist. I know better than that, and fuck you very much anyone who paints me with a brush and says otherwise. But what I am saying is that anyone who thinks SL performs well for me at present because I have the latest graphics cards is wrong.
And listen, when I’ve had problems in the past, I’ve never hesitated to complain. The 1.20 RC series had its way with my systems, both with ATI and Nvidia graphics, at least up to RC6. Those were harsh. They would just lock me up solid on the Nvidia based system, and have a nice day. And other weirdness happened routinely on the ATI based computer. But to blame the Nvidia lockups solely on LL would be unfair, as both the Nvidia and Apple drivers at the time were buggy as well. The point? It’s a complex interaction of a lot of shit, and if the people calling everyone else fanboy geeks is at all honest, they’ll have to say they don’t understand it. Slinging names around in frustration is great, but without geeks, there wouldn’t be a computer for you to post your hatred of anyone who knows how to program to the internet to begin with.
I got a lot of comments telling me I was whining back when I was bitching about the 1.20 RC’s, and now I’m sure I’ll get a lot of hatred directed my way for saying the world’s not the evil place everyone thinks it is now. This is what happens when you have an opinion - somewhere there’s going to be a set of people who disagree with it vehemently. Some of them can’t handle that ambiguity and so have to call those who happen to disagree with them fanboys and geeks and whatever other labels they happen to have handy, instead of stopping and looking at the issue and admitting it’s more complex than they have time for.
Personally, I agree… Damn the Geeks!!! Damn them who forget not everyone has top of the line hardware. But I also say, Damn the Techtards. Damn them for not taking a look around, realizing something that every gamer in the universe knows which is that improving graphics in games, virtual worlds, ANYTHING 3d and immersive, takes hardware. If you can change that fact, then you are a genius and need to quit wasting your time whining on the internet about the geeks of the world and make it happen.






Well, I'm the one who "whined on the internet" in
Jane2 | October 8, 2008Well, I’m the one who “whined on the internet” in Twitter, so I take it this is directed at me. I’m not sure why my 140 character comment generated this response, but I certainly get the point.
Actually it was directed at the phrase, coined by prokofy,
Radar | October 8, 2008Actually it was directed at the phrase, coined by prokofy, about fanboy geeks and how she thinks that the lindens are purposefully stupid and evil for implementing windlight, when in fact there are a lot of complexities that have included OS versions, drivers, LL code, etc etc.
For example when she says that she’s heard some of the higher model nvidia’s didn’t work with SL, that’s never been the case. What IS the case is that some nvidia models have cause problems for SOME people, and not just with SL, but WoW and other 3d apps too, depending on.. again… a huge mess of complicated factors.
One of the things that makes it so complex is that, although I don’t think they’ve admitted it yet, nvidia apparently released a TON of bad gpu’s that were susceptible to problems under heat load. Guess what SL does to the GPU, temperature-wise?
It’s not a black and white issue. That’s what this post was about. I know you’re smart enough to know that, but Prokofy would rather use labels than understand the real issues, and that’s just a waste of time.
I've never said anything remotely like that, dumbass, and you
Prokofy Neva | October 12, 2008I’ve never said anything remotely like that, dumbass, and you know it. What I’ve said is that Pastrami has had a hugely amplified sounding board to claim that it was necessary to kill usability for his debilitating Windlight, and he and the Lindens and general — and the tiny minority of geeks like yourself — are boosting Windlight and claiming the rest of us are simply too stupid to set it right or too cheap to get updated graphic cards that weren’t made in the last decade.
All of that is wrong, as Hamlet and other figures that command respect (even if not from me) who have patiently stayed on this story month after month, and asked the unmentionable question: are economic downturns, loss of accounts, slowing of growth, etc. due to Windlight? Answer: of course. Anyone with logic and half a brain can see that. It’s only if you are hugely invested and wed to the geek ideology that you can’t see this.
Nobody somehow begrudges the Lindens from moving forward and evolving. But as I’ve said a million times, changing the basic specs *every six months* and making *brand-new cards this year* hopelessly obsolete is a killer.
Read what this educator writes about this severe problem, and in general, *stop being a dick*:
http://homepage.mac.com/jessid/iggy/iggyssyll10.html
You’re the one who needs to take your head out of your ass and read the truth about this situation, which is NOT only about Nvidia and NOT about people having old systems — it is very widespread.
Your arrogant statement needs to be flung *right back at you*:
“It may infuriate him to hear it, but the fact is that at some point, not moving forward with realism would cost SL as people *point out that other upcoming technologies and VW platforms do not require this intensive a graphic card*.
Regardless of the issue of user-generated content, there just aren’t any other modern games or platforms that have this frequent a change, and this high a demand. The Lindens are building in total virtuality — building a virtual world virtually with virtual suppositions about who can really use it — they need to get out of the Lab, out on to the shop floor, and sell a software that works with most people’s machines, and stop putting in crap like Windlight which has not done anything for the beauty of the world as only a tiny handful of people can use it fully charged.
Fair enough. I don't expect that you and I will
Radar | October 13, 2008Fair enough. I don’t expect that you and I will agree 100% on this, but your points are well taken. To be honest, my main issue with you is your ad hominem attack approach. That’s why I’ve adopted the approach to you that I have, and I’m stopping right now. Call me whatever you want, it’s not right for me to continue to purposely needle you because of it.
What I do think is that the “making brand new cards” obsolete is not inherent in windlight, Prokofy, and that’s the point I was trying to make. I was having major issues with both of my graphics cards, NVidia and ATI, during the 1.20 development. At that point it *DID* look like, Ok,… these are cards that should handle this, and they don’t. A few months later, the issues are gone for *me* and I emphasize that to point out that I understand, that doesn’t mean that a whole lot of other people aren’t having issues of various kinds.
I totally agree that the implementation of realism is hammering systems. I’m not convinced that they aren’t related to bugs that can and hopefully will be fixed. There’s no proof that there’s an inherent system killing technology in place here. There definitely are bugs, driver conflicts, and a billion other things going on. But again, this is more complex than any of the other modern games or platforms from a rendering standpoint, I’d have to assert again.
Thanks for your comments. And you’re right, I’ll stop being a dick. Just please be honest and do the same with people that genuinely disagree without resorting to name calling. You can see it’s not the most helpful approach regardless of who’s doing it.
Oh, one more thing... I've never claimed that people having
Radar | October 13, 2008Oh, one more thing… I’ve never claimed that people having issues in WL are too stupid to set things right or don’t know what they’re doing. I know better than that. There have been and still are some seriously broken things in the viewer. On that we have no disagreement at all.
I'm happy to continue my "ad hominem" approach very consciously,
Prokofy Neva | October 14, 2008I’m happy to continue my “ad hominem” approach very consciously, and very deliberately. We’re not in boys’ Latin school, where you lose points in the rhetoric class debate if you use the “ad hominem” arguments. Ad hominem attacks are permitted under the Constitution; indeed, encouraged by Supreme Court decisions as necessary for debate in a democracy. So I will continue to use this method, as geeks only understand force, only understand having it pushed right back in their faces, and only understand if they are called the most resounding names — after all, they do the same thing themselves. I don’t believe in taking the higher road; I believe in fighting as nasty as it needs to be fought — the stakes are high.
Of course it’s a deliberate plan, dumbass, and the Lindens like Pastrami absolutely gloat in this. They delight in being superior and having the high-end machines, and making the plebes grovel. They’ve said the most outrageous things about people on machines “that are now ready to go to kindergarten” as if we are all on five-year machines, and not ones…bought this year, even six months ago. They don’t care; they are supremely arrogant about this, and they need to be called on it, as do you, as you are exactly like them.
Let me once again point to Hamlet, who is ONCE AGAIN writing about this, referencing perfectly credentialed geek Morris Vig:
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/10/beautiful-disas.html#more
What does it take? Aren’t these people authorities for you?
I will not be changing *a thing* about what I do. You *are* a dick.
Ok. Well, in that case, thanks bitch.
Radar | October 14, 2008Ok. Well, in that case, thanks bitch.
Prokofy appears to be unencumbered by knowledge of logic as
Melissa Yeuxdoux | October 14, 2008Prokofy appears to be unencumbered by knowledge of logic as well as technology.
The problem with “ad hominem” arguments is that they are logically invalid, i.e. they do not provide guaranteed true inferences from true premises. That Prokofy proudly boasts willingness to use such arguments demonstrates blatant sophistry, and renders his writings irrelevant to those interested in reasoned discussion.
(I’d love to see a pointer to the particular case in which the Supreme Court argued that ad hominem arguments are essential to debate in a democracy.)
Here's the deal. This quote from Prokofy illustrates a fundamental
Radar | October 14, 2008Here’s the deal. This quote from Prokofy illustrates a fundamental social retardation:
“So I will continue to use this method, as geeks only understand force, only understand having it pushed right back in their faces, and only understand if they are called the most resounding names — after all, they do the same thing themselves. I don’t believe in taking the higher road; I believe in fighting as nasty as it needs to be fought — the stakes are high.”
I work in a company with some really smart people. Some of them could probably qualify as geniuses. I don’t think it’s self-bashing to say that a lot of times I’m the dumbest guy in the room. And the best of those people do not need to make personal attacks to show others the value of their logic.
Intimidation and harassment only works to change the minds of others when you have authority over them. Otherwise people see you for the social inept that you are, and stop listening. Prokofy doesn’t understand or care, deep down she really just wants to call names for its own sake. Unfortunately, being right and ensuring that no one gives a shit does nothing to change things. And if change isn’t really what you want, then why bother? Just get sign that says “end of the world” and shut the hell up.
To be fair, when I name call back to her, I’m wasting my breath too, because she’ll never get the point, which is that such tactics are useless and tiresome. But hey, she says name calling is the only way to get things done, so why not let her have it, if that’s what she wants so badly?
Prokofy is both very smart and very incapable of being a human at the same time. She’d rather be right (in her own mind) than actually change the minds of those she despises so badly. And anyone that doesn’t immediately see things her way is labeled a geek and etc, blah blah blah.
I really don’t understand why more people don’t tell her to fuck off, quite frankly.
There is no magic or design challenges to user generated
Clubside Granville | October 14, 2008There is no magic or design challenges to user generated content. Content streamed from hard disk, optical disc or network is just content, the speed it is delivered and how the client/renderer handles it affects performance. Windlight is the only portion of Second Life to use any modern rendering techniques (shaders in this case), the rest of the 3D code is creaky last century technology. Add that to Windows which doesn’t like OpenGL, the render path to the 3D card that Second Life uses, and there are always bound to be problems. Since the Lindens are to lazy to develop parts of the client unique to the operating system Second Life’s look will always be generations behind modern 3D applications and games running on the same hardware. The only advantage they have is the simplistic nature of the 3D objects users can create.
Many years ago before 3D accelerators became a standard part of video card technology, 3Dfx brought hardware accelerated 3D into an early standard. John Carmack’s Quake technology was an early test of bringing an application into a standards-based 3D system rather than a hardware proprietary one. Microsoft wasn’t a fan and developed DirectX to cover lower-level multimedia hardware development interfaces for Windows. Given Windows market penetration, modern 3D accelerators are developed against DirectX feature sets and OpenGL is an afterthought, particularly in terms of silicon-based acceleration techniques. It would be easy to develop a Windows-based Second Life client that rendered using DirectX while leaving the Man and Linux clients to use OpenGL but that hasn’t been the Lab’s choice. This means hardware that runs many technologically superior games to Second Life doesn’t perform nearly as well with Second Life’s limited 3D feature set. This makes the less technologically inclined either irritated or believing Second Life is too advanced when the opposite is actually true.
Back to user-generated content: the client’s limited cacheing features are the real stumbling block. With the size of modern hard drives you could store hundreds of regions worth of textures to be quickly recalled with little change to the current code. The real change needs to be cacheing of prims so the server only needs to be probed for changes and more of the rendering (particularly occlusion) happening on the client. Prims are the earliest types of 3D objects from when the personal computer first allowed decent 3D applications. For those not in the know, the time was the early 1980s on the Commodore Amiga with programs like Sculpt 3D. Twenty years later these building blocks are only useful for 3D beginners as it is like Legos or Lincoln Logs rather than the modern 3D artist’s toolset of meshes, bones, path cutting, merging and more. These few shapes can’t compare with the polygons (or triangles) of objects you see in modern 3D games. And yet because of how poorly Havok is integrated the number of these simple objects is limited, the maximum draw distance is limited, ultimately producing scenes with tens or hundreds of thousands of triangles to render rather than the tens of millions modern games put on the screen at a locked 60fps.
Hardware could be better utilized today if the primary client, the one for Windows, was optimized for that system. User-generated content is no magical concept, but it is hampered by the way it is delivered, stored and rendered. And that’s my non-geeky take on this situation!